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Marchi myth-busting

Reading McKee's last post, I felt I ought to investigate whether or not bulls are really marked less with Marchi than they are with other guys. I'm sure statisticians everywhere love it when commentators say "I guarantee if we looked at all the stats...." Because if there's one thing statisticians do, it's look at all the stats.

In this case, we are really trying to answer a basic question... Are bulls marked less with Marchi? And depending on the answer, many other questions may be raised.

As to whether bulls are marked less with Marchi than with others, I submit that they are not. Marchi has been on 354 different bulls that I have record of, and I calculated the career average marking for each of those without Marchi aboard, and then with Marchi aboard. 54% of them were marked higher when Marchi was on them.

Is that the final answer? Well, no. McKee must be on to something, because he sure sees a lot of bull riding, and should know what's going on, so let's look further.

For the most part, Marchi has faced his 354 bulls at BFTS events, and that means that he is usually facing these bulls in the prime of their careers. So they really should be somewhat better with him, right? So what we need to do is compare Marchi to his peers, and see how these other guys are doing.

I ran the same numbers on 40 riders with similar careers, Marchi included, and found some interesting things. Turns out that bulls are better with almost all of them, as you might expect. And of these 40, Marchi is ranked 36th in percentage of his bulls which are better with him than they are with others. Who's worse? Wiley Petersen (53%), Cory Melton (46%), Clayton Williams (46%), and Beau Hill (43%). Marchi is most similar to Adriano Moraes (54%), and Austin Meier (54%). The average for all 40 guys is 60%

Now for your stats homework, the best three guys by this measure are at 77%, 71%, and 71%. Can you guess who they are? Hint: the guys at the bottom have several obvious things in common that are not true of the three guys at the top.

Comments (Comment Moderation is enabled. Your comment will not appear until approved.)
I understand where Justin is coming from. Sometimes Marchi is so perfect he ,like Justin McBride can make a bull look easier than he is; and when that happens the scor eis less than the fans and bull people think the score should be.It happens with a lot of riders.I do know that some of the bulls have not had good trips under Marchi as Brandon Gaspar's The Game.I have seen that bull before he became a PBR BFTS short go bull at our events and he was always an eliminator.The only one to get weak trips out of him has been Marchi. In the PBR he blew everyone else off with strong trips.Just as some bulls will be hooky some can be intimidated by certain riders.
# Posted By Sheila Totten | 4/12/08 10:12 AM
SEND THE BRAZILIANS BACK TO MEXICO!!!!



Just kidding. Nice job, Slade.
# Posted By JimmyBobJoeFrank | 4/12/08 1:45 PM
Laughing -
So JimmyBobJoeFrank you readd that little article too about sending those Killer Bee's back to whatever part of Mexico they are from!

My wife and I laughed our back-ends off over that one. Although it is also sad; one, because of someone who skipped Geography; and, two, and more importantly the sorry sentiment. Actually, with all the publicity they have been getting Yolanda and I have been waiting for a bit of ugliness to enter the picture.

From my standpoint - whatever raises the bar! When I was in competitive sports I always wanted to play someone who was better than me if not the best. It is the best way to improve focus and results.

Because of the Brazilians and Justin McBride being out I wondered if everyone hasn't stepped up their game and that is one of the factors in all the 90's. Everyone figures this could be their year since the champ won't be repeating.
Don Beavers
# Posted By Don Beavers | 4/12/08 7:33 PM
Hi All -
I had to laugh a little bit with the results out of Omaha given the recent discussion of judging etc. OK, 2 90 point rides and not very many qualified rides overall. HMM?

Did the pendulum just do its normal swigning? Did pressure from the fans cause a "look" at the judging and some adjustment? Did the Bulls just get tired of hearing all this publicity about all the rides and especially all the 90-pointers and decide to step it up? LOL

So now, let's see what happens next week?

Hope Joe is OK. With a few more tries Brendon Clark would be a good addition to the on air crew. Enjoyed his comments.

Cheers, Don Beavers
# Posted By Don Beavers | 4/14/08 1:30 PM
Hi Justin -
I forgot to ask this last week, but during the Namba broadcasts when Versus ran the Injuries Scroller it listed a camera man with want seemed like major injuries? How is the guy and what happened?
Thanks, Don
# Posted By Don Beavers | 4/14/08 2:37 PM
Hi All -
Anyone going to Billings should take the time to make the short trip out to Little Big Horn (About an hour). An interesting little museum. Seeing the small markers spread across the hills is an amazing sight.

If you have a basic understanding of tactics actually seeing the terrain really reinforces was a monumental blunder Custer committed.

There are also markers for where some of the soldiers killed their horses to try to form a barricade.

A couple of years ago work was also completed on a monument for the Indians who died there.

Little Big Horn is also a national cemetery.

Anyhow, it is a good side trip to add to your trip.

Don
# Posted By Don Beavers | 4/16/08 1:33 PM
I have to agree with the comment of lower scores for not only Gilherme but all the South American riders, I am not an expert but I do know a good ride vs a sloppy or bad ride, and the South American's are taking it in the rear. It is extremely frustrating when one of them makes a great ride and only gets a low 80. Perhaps the Judges feelings about South Americans should be looked at closer.
# Posted By Susan | 4/20/08 11:49 AM
I think that marchi really makes bulls look easy and less than they are. He's a great rider, he can ride anything and make riding backwards or side saddle or anything else look great and easy. Kind of like Justin Mcbride makes Dr Proctor look like he's just sitting on the couch. I think his secret is to not get excited.
# Posted By Bridget | 5/13/08 4:34 PM
"As to whether bulls are marked less with Marchi than with others, I submit that they are not. Marchi has been on 354 different bulls that I have record of, and I calculated the career average marking for each of those without Marchi aboard, and then with Marchi aboard. 54% of them were marked higher when Marchi was on them."

So much for the bull's score, but what about Marchi's scores? Please show us your statistics on that! There's no "myth" that Marchi's scores are lower than other riders on the same bulls!

I can't remember which commentator said it, but someone in the booth stated that the "rag-doll" riders will always get 2-3 points more than Marchi for their "style."
# Posted By Shelia | 5/24/08 2:37 AM
This doesn't take a statistician to figure it out. If Marchi and the bulls he rides were getting marked as high as his competition he would be winning more rounds and more events. He has the highest riding percentage over a longer period of time than any other rider. If his style is what it takes to stay on more bulls--and more unridden bulls--than anyone else (ever), then the judges need to change their concept of what constitutes good style. Put some non-U.S. judges on the events. The organizers of the PBR set this organization up as an international one. Get rid of those in the organization and VS who want it to be a U.S. only organization.
# Posted By Bud | 5/24/08 11:41 AM
By the way, statisticians, did you calculate the bull scores when they bucked off their riders. Remember, Marchi was the first to ride a lot of bulls. Also, look at the timing of certain rides. Round and event wins are what has kept Marchi held down. Several riders have collected incredible scores at just the right time.
# Posted By Bud | 5/24/08 11:54 AM
I agree with Shelia, I am still fumming about the 87.50 Guilherme got on Buckeye in San Antonio. So what is it, his riding style, the bull he draws, and why are the scores so consistently low? I would be interested to see those numbers crunched. Maybe because I am curious, I think Guilherme is having a great season...and pray it continues.
# Posted By Laure from ND | 5/24/08 3:00 PM
I have to agree with Bud, I really wonder about the judges, however I wonder if getting a mix of different countries would be the answer, It would be wonderful if they could find judges that just looked at the bulls and riders, not at what country they came from. But as long as we have commentators calling the Brazilians "Killer Bees" what else can be expected, the Assies and Canadians don't have "cute names", now do they.
# Posted By Susan | 5/25/08 11:35 AM
Okay, hold up a minute. I went off half cocked as I only read the posts, not the entire statistical breakdown that Slade Long used to come to his conclusions. I didn’t know they were available until after I posted. So the bull scores do include all the bull’s outs, not just the rides.
Okay, Mr. Long thinks there are 40 riders with similar careers to Marchi. I don’t think so. Who has had the highest riding percentage three and a half years in a row and come in second for three years? Marchi. Where are his peers?
Let’s look at the riders who came in first those years. Adriano (another Brazilian) who has a similar statistic. Justin McBride has a whopping 66%.
Let’s look at the top riders this year.
Now Oliviera comes in with a typical number for Brazilians--48%.
Lostroh comes in at 59%, Snyder at 59%, Briscoe at 67%, Mouney at 57%, and Jenkins at 59%. I looked up Tony Mendes because he’s one of my favorites and he has a score of 56% and he just got bumped out of the top 45.
Marchi’s U.S. competition is consistently coming up with higher bull scores. Bull Contractors, if you don’t get the right riders on your bulls, they can’t win bull of the year.
But wait a minute. Who is riding when the bulls get those really high scores? Mr. Long calls himself a statistician, but I think he’s just a book keeper. He either can’t analyze his numbers statistically or he can’t articulate his statistical conclusions well. I think someone needs to do some multi-variant analysis. It might lead to some more objective judging. Just off the cuff, Mike White, Chris Shivers, and Justin McBride are among the ones with the highest scored bulls. Why? Well, they’re all small men. Now it has been known for over a century and a half that small men often make better cowboys because they’re not as hard on horses. It’s logical that the bulls will buck better with lighter boys on them. It’s also logical that they will buck better with no weight on them, except most stop bucking well when they throw off the rider. It has been acknowledged that it is difficult to score bulls when the rider doesn’t stay on very long.
So, the bigger boys have a disadvantage because the inertial forces are harder on them, but they may have an easier time because the bulls can’t buck as hard. Where do we find equity in this? Do we need to see weight classes?
# Posted By Bud | 5/26/08 10:47 AM
The bull stats on ProBullStats favoritism finder are for EVERY out, whether the rider gets a score or not. Are there guys who get higher scores than Marchi? Yes. But a lot of them are rather sporadic in their actual riding percentages. Colby Yates is a perfect example; it seems that he's either 90 or nothing. Does that mean he's a better rider than Guilherme? HECK NO!

As far as this season goes, I think for riding percent, you'd have to go back to 1997, when there were far fewer events, to find a season with any rider with comparable percentage (actual numbers being a different story). Adriano was riding 80+% of his bulls that season until he broke his leg pretty late in the season and was unable to compete in the Finals--opening the door for Michael Gaffney to win the Gold Buckle.

The "Favoritism Finder" on Probullstats does show that it's fairly consistent for bulls to just have "off" days, no matter who is riding them--disproving certain people's belief that it's the Brazilians that cheat their bulls on a consistent basis. And it also disproves the theory that certain riders' scores are padded--at least on the BULL side.

As for whether or not Guilherme should have been scored higher on Buckeye this weekend, I don't believe so. His recovery when he was bucked off for all practical purposes was amazing, but that's not what they're supposed to be scored on. If he'd been in total control the entire 8 seconds, I think the score would have been 92+, with him being marked a point or two above the bull. But he wasn't, so the score was correct. Other times, I think he HAS been under-scored. I can't remember which bull it was in 06 (I think it was the last event before the Finals), but Ty Murray called it "The Greatest 88-point Ride in History"--and I think it was a previously unridden bull. In the same breath, though, I have to say that I've seen other top riders who finished their rides out of position similarly to Briscoe's last second on Grey Dog and be scored 3 points more than Briscoe, even though they were on the side of the bull for the last second or two, or when their bull faded the last 2 seconds of the ride and still be scored based on their "reputation" and/or the first 6 seconds of the ride.

I do have to give kudos to McBride for being a lot more humble than people accuse him of. Every time I hear anyone comparing his dream season last year (and it was a great season), when he's in the booth he is quick to reply that he's NEVER had a season that even comes close to Guilherme's this year.
# Posted By Cathy Merchant | 5/26/08 8:39 PM
Thanks, Cathy, for that great insight! I totally agree with you! But, why do some riders get scored higher for a "recovery?" And why did Guilherme get a low score for his FANTASTIC recovery on Buckeye?
# Posted By Shelia | 5/27/08 10:28 PM
For those who haven't caught on, Slade Long continued this argument on a new blog. Go to the main pbr page, click on blogs (right side of the page), Slade Long, more on Marchi, and more.

I think it would be good to split the arguments up. There is the issue of the fact that small men have a statictically provable advantage when it comes to bull scores, and if the PBR judges should compensate for the discrepency. Then there is those magic numbers that come up for some riders at just the right (wrong) time.

Bud
# Posted By Bud | 5/29/08 12:45 PM

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